Mazda CX‌-30 Forum banner

21 - 29 of 29 Posts

·
Premium Member
2021 Mazda CX-30 AWD Turbo Premiun, Soul Red
Joined
·
33 Posts
Scotty73
What a great post, you are my hero.
Do you think a better battery would help?
I understand it will not change how the car behaves but wonder if a stronger battery will help negate the voltage early warning display.
Hope you have blessed day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
A Hello from Canada,

I bought recently a CX-30 and run into this reported behaviour. Hence, I decided to investigate the power management of the vehicle by inserting a Current meter between the negative Battery post and Chassis Ground connection and explored the current draw during the various operating states.

1) When the vehicle is locked and at sleep, after a few minutes the battery current drops to 0.007A or 7mA. This is very good as parking the vehicle for a long time (Airport Parking Lot) wonˋt be much of a problem as any lead acid battery has comparable self discharge rates. Three month non-use should be possible.

2) Whenever the keyfob is used to unlock the car the current initially jumps to 11.7A (with headlights on) and then drops to about 4.5A after the headlights turn off after some 30s. Opening the car door adds 0.5A.

3) entering ACC Mode 1 by pressing the Start Button causes the car electronics to wake up with the center display and dash coming alive. In this state it draws continuously about 4.5A. Playing the radio does not change that, although playing it loudly will increase current draw. That explains why the warning is issued after some 20m.

4) entering ACC mode 2 by pressing the Start Button twice causes current drain to increase to 11.7A.

5) when the car is in sleep mode and you press the map light button, the car wakes up and it draws again 4.5A. The map lights themselves draw only 0.2A. (It is not quite clear, why so much car electronics must activate to simply turn on the map lights. But this is how they design cars nowadays).

The following current values are derived by extracting the differences between switch settings as the basic current drain of 4.5A is always present. For example, headlights current is 11.7A - 4.5A = 7.2A.

6) Break lights draw 0.6A

7) headlight draw together 7.2A or 3.6 each.

8) Steering wheel heater draws 4A.

9) when powering the car down, the current stays initially at about 4.5A. After a few minutes it suddenly falls to 0.23A and after another minute or so to return to sleep mode of 7mA.

To put this in perspective with respect to the battery capacity used up by the time you get the first low battery warning, a word might be in order. It is likely, that the fully charged battery is of a 55AH type. Now, with using the radio for 20min you would have consumed 4.5A for 20 minutes or 4.5* 0.33 = 1.5Ah. That means, that in one hour you would use up about 8% of a full battery's capacity. Now, If you were driving a long distance and you get stuck at the ferry terminal waiting for the next ferry, you could safely play your radio for 1-2hours, assuming the battery is in good condition without restarting your engine. Make sure, you are using Accessory Mode 1 which is the first Active state when pressing the Start Button once. If you are not careful and select accidentally ACC Mode 2 you will be drawing almost 12A and draining the battery much faster.

I have not tested yet what happens long term with the doors open. Will the system go back to sleep or continue draining the battery at a 5A rate until it is empty?

I really wish the manufacturer would take those things seriously. It should be possible to leave the vehicle doors open indefinitely without discharging the battery completely. If this is actually the case, the engineers that allow such design flaws should rethink how vehicle technology should be designed. There is absolutely no excuse for letting people be stranded because of those ill-fated design decisions.

Remember, there are computers in the car that could intervene and protect itself from complete self discharge. It is high time, that fool proof power management be instituted in new cars. It is unacceptable that all those problems experienced by car owners happen in the first place.

What good is a vehicle, that one cannot trust, as far as power states are concerned? When I leave the vehicle I want to be implicitly able to trust, that the electronics is not pulling a fast-one on me.

Anyways, it is my hope, that the above information helps in understanding what happens in the vehicle during the different active states.

Warning: Be careful when performing measurements on your own and avoid at any cost starting the engine. You will likely blow the fuse of the meter or destroy it thoroughly. Even the vehicle could potentially become damaged. I also inserted my meter without breaking the circuit and causing system restart issues.

Apparantly, with tools such as ForScan and Software some of those values can also be extracted or read out via the OBD2 port. But I had no opportunity yet to explore this avenue.

I am not happy with the findings. As an industrial electronics HW and SW designer I find it appalling that cars are designed this way. the map lights should not require a Stage 1 system power up. An independent microcomputer controller could have handled that by itself without getting the rest of the car involved.

Also, not being able to play the media unit for a very long time while stopped in traffic (construction site delays, ferry waiting times) is dissppointing. In my previous car I had an ALPINE media player and could run it just about forever. Picture waiting for a missed ferry for two hours:)

It is a sad state of affairs to design vehicles this way. It proves that sensible power management of the vehicle us not a very high design priority. The excessive complexity of modern technology in general is an Achilles heel and can contribute to excessive future expensive repair costs, for which the car owner cannot be made responsible, but still pays outside warranty period. I guess, that is the price we have to pay for having "Digital" everything in our lives nowadays...

The lack of a front 12V outlet us also an irritant to me.

On a personal note, I had to purchase another vehicle because a semitrailer truck destroyed my previous one while parked. I drove a 2006 Toyota Matrix before and the differences between 2021 and 2006 are shocking. The Matrix was the most reliable vehicle I ever owned and had over 230000km on it With only minor repairs. It was practical and sensible. I would have bought a new one without hesitation. The CX-30 is a lovely replacement. But will it be as longterm reliable? The direct injection principle seems to imply periodic valve cleaning actions every so often. Why do the spark plugs only last 1/3 the Toyota ones did? At the time, I very much enjoy the vehicle. It is a pleasure to drive and very comfortable.

Another potential problem is the position of the Center Console USB jack. What idiot placed it in such an exposed position so that, when an USB memory stick is plugged in, it is very easily possible to knock it and damage possibly both the USB device and the USB jack inside? (I recommend buying a right angle USB extension cable, so the the USB memory can be lying on the bottom of the storage compartment connected to the other end of the USB cable and no longer risks being inadvertently being damaged by normal use of the storage compartment).

Not really on topic here, I have also discovered some somewhat annoying software bugs in the entertainment system that should have been caught by Mazda software quality assurance. But it is nearly impossible to motivate the manufacturer to adress such flaws and it is unacceptable that we owners have to live with such probiems because those problems are not important enough to them. It is absolutely appalling how much flawed software is in our lives nowadays In all kinds of technology products. Forget about talking to the dealers. They can't do anything other than load newer firmware. Those problems can only be addressed by the appropriate company Engineering Departments.

Anyways, all the Best to all of you,
Scotty73
A Hello from Canada,

I bought recently a CX-30 and run into this reported behaviour. Hence, I decided to investigate the power management of the vehicle by inserting a Current meter between the negative Battery post and Chassis Ground connection and explored the current draw during the various operating states.

1) When the vehicle is locked and at sleep, after a few minutes the battery current drops to 0.007A or 7mA. This is very good as parking the vehicle for a long time (Airport Parking Lot) wonˋt be much of a problem as any lead acid battery has comparable self discharge rates. Three month non-use should be possible.

2) Whenever the keyfob is used to unlock the car the current initially jumps to 11.7A (with headlights on) and then drops to about 4.5A after the headlights turn off after some 30s. Opening the car door adds 0.5A.

3) entering ACC Mode 1 by pressing the Start Button causes the car electronics to wake up with the center display and dash coming alive. In this state it draws continuously about 4.5A. Playing the radio does not change that, although playing it loudly will increase current draw. That explains why the warning is issued after some 20m.

4) entering ACC mode 2 by pressing the Start Button twice causes current drain to increase to 11.7A.

5) when the car is in sleep mode and you press the map light button, the car wakes up and it draws again 4.5A. The map lights themselves draw only 0.2A. (It is not quite clear, why so much car electronics must activate to simply turn on the map lights. But this is how they design cars nowadays).

The following current values are derived by extracting the differences between switch settings as the basic current drain of 4.5A is always present. For example, headlights current is 11.7A - 4.5A = 7.2A.

6) Break lights draw 0.6A

7) headlight draw together 7.2A or 3.6 each.

8) Steering wheel heater draws 4A.

9) when powering the car down, the current stays initially at about 4.5A. After a few minutes it suddenly falls to 0.23A and after another minute or so to return to sleep mode of 7mA.

To put this in perspective with respect to the battery capacity used up by the time you get the first low battery warning, a word might be in order. It is likely, that the fully charged battery is of a 55AH type. Now, with using the radio for 20min you would have consumed 4.5A for 20 minutes or 4.5* 0.33 = 1.5Ah. That means, that in one hour you would use up about 8% of a full battery's capacity. Now, If you were driving a long distance and you get stuck at the ferry terminal waiting for the next ferry, you could safely play your radio for 1-2hours, assuming the battery is in good condition without restarting your engine. Make sure, you are using Accessory Mode 1 which is the first Active state when pressing the Start Button once. If you are not careful and select accidentally ACC Mode 2 you will be drawing almost 12A and draining the battery much faster.

I have not tested yet what happens long term with the doors open. Will the system go back to sleep or continue draining the battery at a 5A rate until it is empty?

I really wish the manufacturer would take those things seriously. It should be possible to leave the vehicle doors open indefinitely without discharging the battery completely. If this is actually the case, the engineers that allow such design flaws should rethink how vehicle technology should be designed. There is absolutely no excuse for letting people be stranded because of those ill-fated design decisions.

Remember, there are computers in the car that could intervene and protect itself from complete self discharge. It is high time, that fool proof power management be instituted in new cars. It is unacceptable that all those problems experienced by car owners happen in the first place.

What good is a vehicle, that one cannot trust, as far as power states are concerned? When I leave the vehicle I want to be implicitly able to trust, that the electronics is not pulling a fast-one on me.

Anyways, it is my hope, that the above information helps in understanding what happens in the vehicle during the different active states.

Warning: Be careful when performing measurements on your own and avoid at any cost starting the engine. You will likely blow the fuse of the meter or destroy it thoroughly. Even the vehicle could potentially become damaged. I also inserted my meter without breaking the circuit and causing system restart issues.

Apparantly, with tools such as ForScan and Software some of those values can also be extracted or read out via the OBD2 port. But I had no opportunity yet to explore this avenue.

I am not happy with the findings. As an industrial electronics HW and SW designer I find it appalling that cars are designed this way. the map lights should not require a Stage 1 system power up. An independent microcomputer controller could have handled that by itself without getting the rest of the car involved.

Also, not being able to play the media unit for a very long time while stopped in traffic (construction site delays, ferry waiting times) is dissppointing. In my previous car I had an ALPINE media player and could run it just about forever. Picture waiting for a missed ferry for two hours:)

It is a sad state of affairs to design vehicles this way. It proves that sensible power management of the vehicle us not a very high design priority. The excessive complexity of modern technology in general is an Achilles heel and can contribute to excessive future expensive repair costs, for which the car owner cannot be made responsible, but still pays outside warranty period. I guess, that is the price we have to pay for having "Digital" everything in our lives nowadays...

The lack of a front 12V outlet us also an irritant to me.

On a personal note, I had to purchase another vehicle because a semitrailer truck destroyed my previous one while parked. I drove a 2006 Toyota Matrix before and the differences between 2021 and 2006 are shocking. The Matrix was the most reliable vehicle I ever owned and had over 230000km on it With only minor repairs. It was practical and sensible. I would have bought a new one without hesitation. The CX-30 is a lovely replacement. But will it be as longterm reliable? The direct injection principle seems to imply periodic valve cleaning actions every so often. Why do the spark plugs only last 1/3 the Toyota ones did? At the time, I very much enjoy the vehicle. It is a pleasure to drive and very comfortable.

Another potential problem is the position of the Center Console USB jack. What idiot placed it in such an exposed position so that, when an USB memory stick is plugged in, it is very easily possible to knock it and damage possibly both the USB device and the USB jack inside? (I recommend buying a right angle USB extension cable, so the the USB memory can be lying on the bottom of the storage compartment connected to the other end of the USB cable and no longer risks being inadvertently being damaged by normal use of the storage compartment).

Not really on topic here, I have also discovered some somewhat annoying software bugs in the entertainment system that should have been caught by Mazda software quality assurance. But it is nearly impossible to motivate the manufacturer to adress such flaws and it is unacceptable that we owners have to live with such probiems because those problems are not important enough to them. It is absolutely appalling how much flawed software is in our lives nowadays In all kinds of technology products. Forget about talking to the dealers. They can't do anything other than load newer firmware. Those problems can only be addressed by the appropriate company Engineering Departments.

Anyways, all the Best to all of you,
Scotty73
Amen regarding the Matrix. I just sold my 2003 Toyota Matrix (155K miles) after it serviced two HS/College students and associated abuse. Was a great car. Would love the CX30 to be same. . . we shall see.
 

·
Registered
2021 CX-30 GS 2.5L AWD Pearl White
Joined
·
13 Posts
Not really. the main thing to watch out for, is to make sure it is getting properly charged during normal driving. If you are listening to audio or turn on ACC 1 position you will drain a typical 55Ah battery at about 8% of rated capacity per hour and there is nothing you can really do about that, because that is the way they design modern cars nowadays. Anyways, playing on battery for one to two hours should be safe. A bigger battery gives you some additional reserves as long as the charging system does what it is supposed to. I have not researched how well the CX-30 battery gets recharged during normal use yet. I would suggest to charge the battery after , say perhaps three warnings. You need to explore this as it might be specific to your car´s battery condition.

The real problem is, manufactures always get a lot of pressure for "favourable" fuel consumption numbers and then corners are sometimes cut and complex sophisticated methodologies get exploited that may work well during design testing and development, but prove themselves less reliable or advantageous in the field with the customer. Sometimes the old fashened car electric concepts were way more robust. It is truly a minefield. Some cars have terrible systematic problems due to pushing the limits of high tech and algorithms instead relying on more oldfashioned tried and true methodologies. That is unfortunately, the consequence of product design in our age. The propensity of design engineers to always want to utilize the most modern design methods involving sophisticated digital approaches and software backfires sometimes.

I am sorry for not being able offering you a silver bullet in answer to your concerns.

"Modern Times, modern Problems"...
 

·
Registered
2021 CX-30 2.5L AWD Pearl White
Joined
·
23 Posts
A Hello from Canada,

I really wish the manufacturer would take those things seriously. It should be possible to leave the vehicle doors open indefinitely without discharging the battery completely. If this is actually the case, the engineers that allow such design flaws should rethink how vehicle technology should be designed. There is absolutely no excuse for letting people be stranded because of those ill-fated design decisions.

Remember, there are computers in the car that could intervene and protect itself from complete self discharge. It is high time, that fool proof power management be instituted in new cars. It is unacceptable that all those problems experienced by car owners happen in the first place.
Most manufacturers have been designing and implementing battery protection strategies for years. In fact the notification that some are reporting about the battery getting depleted and being told to start their engine is evidence of just such technology. However there are limits to what is going to work and what won't. It takes time to recharge a battery after a starting event or after an extended drain event has occurred. I can play a little later this week and see if the vehicle will power down with a door left open or not. "Usually" we see about a twenty minute window where the system will identify a potential problem and power down.


Apparantly, with tools such as ForScan and Software some of those values can also be extracted or read out via the OBD2 port. But I had no opportunity yet to explore this avenue.

Scotty73
Forscan will not work on anything newer than 2017, yet. Autel supports up to 2019 as of right now. For access to a 2021 the only real solution is a J2534 pass through device and a short term subscription to MDARS or a full subscription for MDS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
A Hello from Canada,

I bought recently a CX-30 and run into this reported behaviour. Hence, I decided to investigate the power management of the vehicle by inserting a Current meter between the negative Battery post and Chassis Ground connection and explored the current draw during the various operating states.

1) When the vehicle is locked and at sleep, after a few minutes the battery current drops to 0.007A or 7mA. This is very good as parking the vehicle for a long time (Airport Parking Lot) wonˋt be much of a problem as any lead acid battery has comparable self discharge rates. Three month non-use should be possible.

2) Whenever the keyfob is used to unlock the car the current initially jumps to 11.7A (with headlights on) and then drops to about 4.5A after the headlights turn off after some 30s. Opening the car door adds 0.5A.

3) entering ACC Mode 1 by pressing the Start Button causes the car electronics to wake up with the center display and dash coming alive. In this state it draws continuously about 4.5A. Playing the radio does not change that, although playing it loudly will increase current draw. That explains why the warning is issued after some 20m.

4) entering ACC mode 2 by pressing the Start Button twice causes current drain to increase to 11.7A.

5) when the car is in sleep mode and you press the map light button, the car wakes up and it draws again 4.5A. The map lights themselves draw only 0.2A. (It is not quite clear, why so much car electronics must activate to simply turn on the map lights. But this is how they design cars nowadays).

The following current values are derived by extracting the differences between switch settings as the basic current drain of 4.5A is always present. For example, headlights current is 11.7A - 4.5A = 7.2A.

6) Break lights draw 0.6A

7) headlight draw together 7.2A or 3.6 each.

8) Steering wheel heater draws 4A.

9) when powering the car down, the current stays initially at about 4.5A. After a few minutes it suddenly falls to 0.23A and after another minute or so to return to sleep mode of 7mA.

To put this in perspective with respect to the battery capacity used up by the time you get the first low battery warning, a word might be in order. It is likely, that the fully charged battery is of a 55AH type. Now, with using the radio for 20min you would have consumed 4.5A for 20 minutes or 4.5* 0.33 = 1.5Ah. That means, that in one hour you would use up about 8% of a full battery's capacity. Now, If you were driving a long distance and you get stuck at the ferry terminal waiting for the next ferry, you could safely play your radio for 1-2hours, assuming the battery is in good condition without restarting your engine. Make sure, you are using Accessory Mode 1 which is the first Active state when pressing the Start Button once. If you are not careful and select accidentally ACC Mode 2 you will be drawing almost 12A and draining the battery much faster.

I have not tested yet what happens long term with the doors open. Will the system go back to sleep or continue draining the battery at a 5A rate until it is empty?

I really wish the manufacturer would take those things seriously. It should be possible to leave the vehicle doors open indefinitely without discharging the battery completely. If this is actually the case, the engineers that allow such design flaws should rethink how vehicle technology should be designed. There is absolutely no excuse for letting people be stranded because of those ill-fated design decisions.

Remember, there are computers in the car that could intervene and protect itself from complete self discharge. It is high time, that fool proof power management be instituted in new cars. It is unacceptable that all those problems experienced by car owners happen in the first place.

What good is a vehicle, that one cannot trust, as far as power states are concerned? When I leave the vehicle I want to be implicitly able to trust, that the electronics is not pulling a fast-one on me.

Anyways, it is my hope, that the above information helps in understanding what happens in the vehicle during the different active states.

Warning: Be careful when performing measurements on your own and avoid at any cost starting the engine. You will likely blow the fuse of the meter or destroy it thoroughly. Even the vehicle could potentially become damaged. I also inserted my meter without breaking the circuit and causing system restart issues.

Apparantly, with tools such as ForScan and Software some of those values can also be extracted or read out via the OBD2 port. But I had no opportunity yet to explore this avenue.

I am not happy with the findings. As an industrial electronics HW and SW designer I find it appalling that cars are designed this way. the map lights should not require a Stage 1 system power up. An independent microcomputer controller could have handled that by itself without getting the rest of the car involved.

Also, not being able to play the media unit for a very long time while stopped in traffic (construction site delays, ferry waiting times) is dissppointing. In my previous car I had an ALPINE media player and could run it just about forever. Picture waiting for a missed ferry for two hours:)

It is a sad state of affairs to design vehicles this way. It proves that sensible power management of the vehicle us not a very high design priority. The excessive complexity of modern technology in general is an Achilles heel and can contribute to excessive future expensive repair costs, for which the car owner cannot be made responsible, but still pays outside warranty period. I guess, that is the price we have to pay for having "Digital" everything in our lives nowadays...

The lack of a front 12V outlet us also an irritant to me.

On a personal note, I had to purchase another vehicle because a semitrailer truck destroyed my previous one while parked. I drove a 2006 Toyota Matrix before and the differences between 2021 and 2006 are shocking. The Matrix was the most reliable vehicle I ever owned and had over 230000km on it With only minor repairs. It was practical and sensible. I would have bought a new one without hesitation. The CX-30 is a lovely replacement. But will it be as longterm reliable? The direct injection principle seems to imply periodic valve cleaning actions every so often. Why do the spark plugs only last 1/3 the Toyota ones did? At the time, I very much enjoy the vehicle. It is a pleasure to drive and very comfortable.

Another potential problem is the position of the Center Console USB jack. What idiot placed it in such an exposed position so that, when an USB memory stick is plugged in, it is very easily possible to knock it and damage possibly both the USB device and the USB jack inside? (I recommend buying a right angle USB extension cable, so the the USB memory can be lying on the bottom of the storage compartment connected to the other end of the USB cable and no longer risks being inadvertently being damaged by normal use of the storage compartment).

Not really on topic here, I have also discovered some somewhat annoying software bugs in the entertainment system that should have been caught by Mazda software quality assurance. But it is nearly impossible to motivate the manufacturer to adress such flaws and it is unacceptable that we owners have to live with such probiems because those problems are not important enough to them. It is absolutely appalling how much flawed software is in our lives nowadays In all kinds of technology products. Forget about talking to the dealers. They can't do anything other than load newer firmware. Those problems can only be addressed by the appropriate company Engineering Departments.

Anyways, all the Best to all of you,
Scotty73
Many thanks for all that Scotty. I bought a clamp-on ammeter to do exactly the same thing myself, just haven’t got around to it yet. Not sure about the single press of the start button though. I did that on mine to listen to the radio for about 15/20 minutes and the battery was dead. I’ve also had it go dead overnight just because the key was too close to where the car was parked.
Maybe it’s different on mine being an earlier model, mine doesn’t give any warnings of excessive battery drain or low voltage. I’ll have to run my own tests and see what results I get.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
The battery will drain even if you do not turn the car in ACC mode or start the engine, with the following conditions:
  • Opening door(s)
  • Key fob is near the vehicle
  • Using the electric liftgate
  • Adjusting electric chair
  • Using indoor lights
  • Not using the vehicle for longer days
Please check the above conditions to avoid draining the battery.
Is it possible to deactivate the keyless entry function, so the car only wakes up and enables the start button if you actually press the unlock button on the key?
As it stands, I can’t even sit in the car waiting for more than about 15 minutes if I have the key in my pocket.
 

·
Registered
2021 CX-30 2.5L AWD Pearl White
Joined
·
23 Posts
Is it possible to deactivate the keyless entry function, so the car only wakes up and enables the start button if you actually press the unlock button on the key?
As it stands, I can’t even sit in the car waiting for more than about 15 minutes if I have the key in my pocket.
If you only have 15 minutes of accessory time, you have a severely discharged battery. If the battery remains in it's discharged state you will see it have a very short lifespan, easily less than a year. So for now it needs to be recharged and this should be done with a smart charger (not the car's alternator) that will keep the battery at float voltage once the bulk of the power has been restored. It takes about two hours on a charger to restore the battery to about 70% state of charge once it has been depleted to the point that the car has trouble starting. The next 30% takes all night to accomplish and that's where everyone get's into trouble. A battery at 70% is still a discharged battery which shortens it's lifespan.

As far as disabling the keyless entry function that would take some real investigation. Even so, if it could be done it's likely it would include other undesirable side effects. Disabling the oscillators that detect the key would disrupt the push button start too. This is Toyota's system (a version of it anyway) and with knowing how they work I would expect you would need to hold the fob near the start button to start the car using a back-up strategy.
 

·
Registered
2020 CX-30 GT - Skyactive G - 2.5 L AWD
Joined
·
270 Posts
I do sympathize with the owners that are experiencing this issue. Fortunately I have had no issues after almost 30 000 km
 

·
Registered
2021, CX-30 Grand Touring FWD Dark Gray
Joined
·
18 Posts
Many thanks for all that Scotty. I bought a clamp-on ammeter to do exactly the same thing myself, just haven’t got around to it yet. Not sure about the single press of the start button though. I did that on mine to listen to the radio for about 15/20 minutes and the battery was dead. I’ve also had it go dead overnight just because the key was too close to where the car was parked.
Maybe it’s different on mine being an earlier model, mine doesn’t give any warnings of excessive battery drain or low voltage. I’ll have to run my own tests and see what results I get.
Hello Scotty--Thank you for such a nice and comprehensive report on this battery drain issue---as per your right on comment at the end--on the question--do manufacturers designers care about customers complaints? Do they really not care?

I do know Japanese managers are always concerned about what end users think of their products--at least from my personal experience working for almost 15 years for one of them....Not in the automobile industry--however, bottom line; I personally think they do care. What is happening is that we can not get to them--or, at least I haven't figure out how to get to them, yet. I will keep trying though. Do you know if having a higher CCA battery may help on this ussue? My CX-30 has a 520 CCA battery now. This is maybe too low....
 
21 - 29 of 29 Posts
Top